Heroes of Harclave
Heroes of Harclave
Brenden "Magi" Gardner - 08/16/2005
There is no denying it: there is no place like the Trials of Harclave. I have played nearly every MMORPG and it is truly unique and dare I say revolutionary?
Though is this necessarily a good thing?
Ever since the Splitpaw Saga was released I have been very anxious to tackle this topic. It is a very interesting one as well, namely because those who support and against it are rather silent at times.
Why?
Perhaps because it is only one dungeon so it is permissible. Maybe it is because those against it feel the nerf bat will be on its way soon. No matter the reason it is there and it doesn't seem at this point it will be nerfed.
I remember almost a month ago having conversations with people in-game and by and large most of them were very insistent that the Trials of Harclave will receive the nerf bat in quite the violent way. They felt - and I can't blame them - that the experience and cash farm house that it is, is far too extreme.
That, of course, is only one point of view.
There is a very good reason why the Trials of Harclave have been left untouched for such a long time, and something those against the dungeon don't realize and that is simply the developers knew exactly what they were doing when implementing the dungeon.
They knew the experience rate would be quite high (especially in the difficult or very difficult instances). They knew how quickly it took to accumulate these experience point amounts. Lastly, they knew how much cash could be accumulated (at least 10 gold per trip).
So what is the rationale behind these decisions?
One of the reasons I've wanted to tackle this issue for so long is simply because we don't really have these answers yet. I have not see any definitive defenses of the dungeon, or at least none that I would view as satisfactory. But rest assured there are a number of very good reasons why and yes these mostly revolve around soloers and casual players.
The Economy
One of the major problems that EverQuest II has, particularly in the beginning portions of the game, is the economy. Moreso, the accumulation of gold and later platinum. Normally this problem wouldn't exist but because we have a player-run economy in place, critical items are crafted by players (adept scrolls, armor, weapons) and as a result the prices for such things are quite high. If you don't believe me go look at the prices for low level scrolls (10-19): new players should not have to blow their entire savings for one spell!
The first change to help address this (and note this problem is unsolvable without interfering with the player-run economy) was in fact the Trial of Harclave. For a solo and casual player, such as myself, accumulating 10 gold (or more) in one play session solves most, if not all cash problems that we have. Ultimately, it is a much better solution than "go out and harvest" (which, by the way, can be extremely counter-productive if you have next to no luck).
As a final note on the economy section, SOE has recently added copper and silver drops to sentient creatures and this has also helped greatly. Admitting there is a problem is a first step to solving it.
The Grind
I've made it no secret in the past: I am completely against the level grind. On the other hand I recognize how in some games (like EverQuest II) that it is a necessary evil in more ways then one. Regardless, the grind in EverQuest II can be harsh and with the failure of the mentor system something needed to be done to help the more casual players who are under-leveled.
In comes the Trial of Harclave with accelerated rates of experience gain. Now we're not talking about a level a day here but if a casual player puts in about four or five hours a week they will level up (assuming it is all spent in the Trials of Harclave). This way an avenue is provided to the casual gamers to level up and catch up to their much higher level friends since the mentor system is so unappealing.
I want to make something clear: if the Trials of Harclave were available in the beginning life of the game I would be against it. The population, inevitably, would be too top-heavy. But as we all know the real juice of EverQuest II is in the end game so why not help those along who are in the middle stages of it? May as well put them up with everyone else so they really can enjoy it. After all, a good chunk of the Desert of Flames will catered to that level 45 and above crowd.
The Solo Game
Yes I will play the solo card yet again. Enhancing the solo game was yet another reason, and surprisingly, the weakest reason for why we saw the Trials of Harclave introduced and why it does remain.
I have grouped before, and I do enjoy good groups, and I have also played the solo game and I enjoy it as well. But the Trials of Harclave give a very unique appeal to soloers: it brings the excitement and exhilaration [of the group game] to them, but solo!
Also, speaking from a solo player, as long as dungeons like this are kept to a minimum the game won't be altered dramatically. In fact, I don't think we'll see anymore "group simulation but solo dungeons" like the Trials of Harclave.
Yes my friends those are the three reasons behind why we see the Trials of Harclave in EverQuest II and really is it all that bad? More money into the economy won't hurt things: many players will be able to afford what crafters sell now! What is wrong, also, with more players being at end game quicker? For those who are level 50, how does it hurt you? If anything, it helps. Sure there are some guilds who are set in stone but many still need those level 45s and this will help them considerably.
These are just a couple things to remember when considering the Trials of Harclave. Oh, and by the way, it won't be nerfed either. Not today, not tomorrow, never.
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Brenden "Magi" Gardner - 08/16/2005
There is no denying it: there is no place like the Trials of Harclave. I have played nearly every MMORPG and it is truly unique and dare I say revolutionary?
Though is this necessarily a good thing?
Ever since the Splitpaw Saga was released I have been very anxious to tackle this topic. It is a very interesting one as well, namely because those who support and against it are rather silent at times.
Why?
Perhaps because it is only one dungeon so it is permissible. Maybe it is because those against it feel the nerf bat will be on its way soon. No matter the reason it is there and it doesn't seem at this point it will be nerfed.
I remember almost a month ago having conversations with people in-game and by and large most of them were very insistent that the Trials of Harclave will receive the nerf bat in quite the violent way. They felt - and I can't blame them - that the experience and cash farm house that it is, is far too extreme.
That, of course, is only one point of view.
There is a very good reason why the Trials of Harclave have been left untouched for such a long time, and something those against the dungeon don't realize and that is simply the developers knew exactly what they were doing when implementing the dungeon.
They knew the experience rate would be quite high (especially in the difficult or very difficult instances). They knew how quickly it took to accumulate these experience point amounts. Lastly, they knew how much cash could be accumulated (at least 10 gold per trip).
So what is the rationale behind these decisions?
One of the reasons I've wanted to tackle this issue for so long is simply because we don't really have these answers yet. I have not see any definitive defenses of the dungeon, or at least none that I would view as satisfactory. But rest assured there are a number of very good reasons why and yes these mostly revolve around soloers and casual players.
The Economy
One of the major problems that EverQuest II has, particularly in the beginning portions of the game, is the economy. Moreso, the accumulation of gold and later platinum. Normally this problem wouldn't exist but because we have a player-run economy in place, critical items are crafted by players (adept scrolls, armor, weapons) and as a result the prices for such things are quite high. If you don't believe me go look at the prices for low level scrolls (10-19): new players should not have to blow their entire savings for one spell!
The first change to help address this (and note this problem is unsolvable without interfering with the player-run economy) was in fact the Trial of Harclave. For a solo and casual player, such as myself, accumulating 10 gold (or more) in one play session solves most, if not all cash problems that we have. Ultimately, it is a much better solution than "go out and harvest" (which, by the way, can be extremely counter-productive if you have next to no luck).
As a final note on the economy section, SOE has recently added copper and silver drops to sentient creatures and this has also helped greatly. Admitting there is a problem is a first step to solving it.
The Grind
I've made it no secret in the past: I am completely against the level grind. On the other hand I recognize how in some games (like EverQuest II) that it is a necessary evil in more ways then one. Regardless, the grind in EverQuest II can be harsh and with the failure of the mentor system something needed to be done to help the more casual players who are under-leveled.
In comes the Trial of Harclave with accelerated rates of experience gain. Now we're not talking about a level a day here but if a casual player puts in about four or five hours a week they will level up (assuming it is all spent in the Trials of Harclave). This way an avenue is provided to the casual gamers to level up and catch up to their much higher level friends since the mentor system is so unappealing.
I want to make something clear: if the Trials of Harclave were available in the beginning life of the game I would be against it. The population, inevitably, would be too top-heavy. But as we all know the real juice of EverQuest II is in the end game so why not help those along who are in the middle stages of it? May as well put them up with everyone else so they really can enjoy it. After all, a good chunk of the Desert of Flames will catered to that level 45 and above crowd.
The Solo Game
Yes I will play the solo card yet again. Enhancing the solo game was yet another reason, and surprisingly, the weakest reason for why we saw the Trials of Harclave introduced and why it does remain.
I have grouped before, and I do enjoy good groups, and I have also played the solo game and I enjoy it as well. But the Trials of Harclave give a very unique appeal to soloers: it brings the excitement and exhilaration [of the group game] to them, but solo!
Also, speaking from a solo player, as long as dungeons like this are kept to a minimum the game won't be altered dramatically. In fact, I don't think we'll see anymore "group simulation but solo dungeons" like the Trials of Harclave.
Yes my friends those are the three reasons behind why we see the Trials of Harclave in EverQuest II and really is it all that bad? More money into the economy won't hurt things: many players will be able to afford what crafters sell now! What is wrong, also, with more players being at end game quicker? For those who are level 50, how does it hurt you? If anything, it helps. Sure there are some guilds who are set in stone but many still need those level 45s and this will help them considerably.
These are just a couple things to remember when considering the Trials of Harclave. Oh, and by the way, it won't be nerfed either. Not today, not tomorrow, never.
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| Posted by Skabanis at 2005-08-17 01:31:23 | |||
| Another thing that ruined our econ at least on kithacor was dupers who made tons of coin...Whole guild have been funded by these dupers Scam...i like Harclave and it isnt all that easy...and more money is a good thing if its done fair and square | |||
| Posted by Ktok at 2005-08-17 08:28:38 | |||
| Nice editorial A few things
First off more money in the economy *is* a bad thing. Why Well its pretty simple. It use to be that a Coral sold for 10g. Now it sells for 30g to 50g. What is the reason for such a leap Its simple. So long as the sellers know there is more money in the economy and they do know it then they will raise prices to the absolute maximum they can and still make sales with reasonable regularity. So ways to earn more money simply begets need for better ways to earn more money and so on. Its a vicious cycle and it is never ending so long as players greed is greater than their desire to provide an item at a cost reasonable to that items intended level of use.
Secondly Harclave has been nerfed. The reuse timer was made longer the drop rate of chests was cut back and the XP gain was taken down a little. The reuse timer was mostly un-nerfed but the others stay in place and have been in place since about one week after Splitpaw went live.
The time investment needed for a ding in Harclave is considerably more than 4 or 5 hours. As a Guardian of 47 seasons Harclave on hardest setting takes me about two hours to go through and if I am out of vitality which evaporates at the rate of ethanol in Harclave at that level I may come away with 20 per run if Im lucky and the majority of the spawns are red. 100 20 5 x 2 hours 10 hours for a ding. Thats a far cry from only needing 4 or 5 hours a week to get a ding a week. Now 4 hours between the end and start of Harclaves due to the reuse timer would be 4 x 4 not 5 because there are only 4 *between* the five runs youd need 16. 16 10 26 hours of either slaying in Harclave or waiting on the lockout timer total for one ding in the high 40s with no vitality. Add to this the fact that Harclave *is* boring after the 20th time or so believe me I know and the claims people make that it is too good a source of fast XP go pretty well out the window.
I agree it wont be nerfed any further. In fact I expect it to be un-nerfed at some point. I also expect even more Harclave type zones to go in hopefully a group one where instead of one person killing heroic mobs its one group killing epics. Why Because in a few years the level cap will be at 100 and there will have to be a fast way for new players to get up to that point without years of grinding. Otherwise the task will be too daunting for new players to take on and fresh blood will stop flowing into the servers. | |||
| Posted by Pyroman at 2005-08-17 08:55:16 | |||
| I like the harclave and I think the fact that after you do it 50 times you would opt to skip it out of boredom. I wouldnt be opposed to it not dropping any loot at all or very little.
Its also great for those alts people have that are 20 or new players in general. When I get on my 20 ranger I cant even find a group to help me go through delving. So no doubt other players have problems finding group members around 20.
I dont think they should touch the experience aspect of it at all but I can definitely see why people have problems with how much money people can make there. | |||
| Posted by wackbag at 2005-08-17 09:24:50 | |||
| I agree with Ktok for the most part except on his views on in-game economy. In normal open-market economies there are so many sellers that no one person can affect anything to a great extent. If you look at in-game broker screens there may be only one person selling an App IV spell for 3g. THe next day there may be the original sell plus 2 new sellers at 1g a piece hoping to undercut the first guy. Also the is no barriers to entrence in the broker market. I someone with little to no experience sees an Adept III spell for sale for 55g they may not realize that 45g for the Adept I version is totally unreasonable. In short i dont think the increase in the money supply has caused your inflation I think it is the fault of ignorant people. | |||
| Posted by Loral Ciriclight at 2005-08-17 09:27:32 | |||
| Great editorial. I am a very casual EQ2 player most of my time is spent in Everquest but I have done the Trial of Harclave a couple of times. I was surprised at the vast experience and cash jump.
Your article reminded me of the issues surrounding Plane of Fire in Everquests Planes of Power. From about six months after Planes of Power until now a total of about three years Plane of Fire has been the best place to earn experience. When Omens of War came out four expansions after Planes of Power it introduced level 70. Rather than level up in the new expansion facing new content players all went four expansions back and hunted in the Plane of Fire until they hit 70. No doubt when level 75 comes out they will do the same.
The EQ developers said that Plane of Fire was broken but because of its growing po*beep*rity they never fixed it. Since then players have skipped new content in favor of Plane of Fire when it came to earning levels.
Harclave may become EQ2s Plane of Fire. You have a solo dungeon that offers group-level experience and group level loot. You have a dungeon that scales its level from 20 to 50. Whenever someone wants loot cash or experience why go somewhere else
Loot and experience drive players to play. It is the driver that gets players to fun and new content. If you do not use loot and experience to push players to newer and fun content they will grind on the same more rewarding content until they get bored and quit.
Even though it is only one dungeon Harclave alone can make future zones obsolete before they even come out. SOE will either have to fix Harclave or make future zones even more profitable all part of the dreaded mudflation.
It is an interesting subject and I very much enjo*beep* your article.
Loral Ciriclight
loralloralciriclight.com
httpmobhunter.com
httpeq.crgaming.com
httploralciriclight.com | |||
| Posted by Loral at 2005-08-17 09:28:23 | |||
| Wow what on earth happened to my comment | |||
| Posted by Leonai at 2005-08-17 09:48:05 | |||
| I think the comment system didntlike the amount of content. lol. I did receive your email and am forwarding it on to Mati. | |||
| Posted by Senthir at 2005-08-18 11:10:33 | |||
| I quite enjo*beep* the Trial of Harclave...my first 30 or so times through it. Now I do everything in my power NOT to go there just because its so very boring. If I CANNOT find a group after searching several zones ill go. If I NEED the money to repair my gear or pay off my inn room ill go. Almost every time I go now though I end up camping halfway through it because its so mind-numbingly boring. | |||
| Posted by Gebo at 2005-08-19 17:27:12 | |||
| First of all as has been said they did nerf Harclaves. Severely. The comments from players originally about the nerf bat was right on target and we saw it come to pass. In the first week or 2 of the expansion you could go into Harclaves with an empty inventory 70 slots and have to delete stuff by the time you left there. Now Im lucky to get a bag or 2 though admittedly its still probably better than soloing in an outdoor zone the same amount of time. Second your argument regarding the Economy aspect is borderline idiotic. You list as an example the outrageous prices for level 10-19 upgrades and suggest that Harclaves is an answer. Guess what... you have to be level TWENTY to get to Harclaves so this does nothing for the new player except cause them to inflate prices on the stuff they find or make to be able to afford the stuff they need. In addition adding copper and silver to sentient creatures actually causes some difficulties with classes that dont have large amounts of strength. The body parts that used to drop had no weight to them so you could carry a large number before having to sell limited by your inventory space. Now you have to worry about your weight limitations if youve been out adventuring for a while because the amount of silver and copper that you carry around weighs significantly more than previous loot that it replaced. You dont realize this effect because you are a ranger. You have tons of strength I hope. I know because I am also a ranger but I also have a conjuror that faces this problem of getting burdened down with too much coin and not being able to change it into larger denominations. Regarding the grind Harclaves is boring boring boring. I loved it in the beginning but after a few dozen runs through it its just not worth it to try and stay awake. I would probably suck it up if they hadnt nerfed it so badly but as it is its just not worth it. You state that the real juice of EverQuest II is in the end game but then you try to justify a zone that actually causes problems for players that reach the end game. What do I mean Well with the introduction of these solo instanced zones players can level from 20 to 50 without ever grouping. Now theyre level 50 and want to experience the end game and guess what They dont have a clue how to act or what to do in a group much less a raid. This was part of the reason that Harclaves was nerfed. People would play there almost exclusively and all of a sudden other wonderful zones in the game were almost entirely abandoned. | |||
| Posted by Rendclaw at 2005-08-21 15:35:25 | |||
| Harclaves is around to make more toons 45 and up for the expansion.
After all why buy it if you cant use it. | |||
| Posted by at 2005-09-04 19:15:37 | |||
| Im not sure Im following the nerf of cash in Harclave. I kill every living and undead thing in there in approximately 2 hours and 15 minutes. Each run nets 30-50 gp at level 43. The experience is currently at 18 without vitality which means 36 adventure xp if you have enough vitality. I usually play the difficult setting as that seems to give best xpmoney per hour.
Yes the devs did nerf xp but thats when the xp gain was beyond reason. Even as a solo player I think the xp gain is too much I can hardly keep myself upgraded with my lvl gains. By upgraded I mean uber ugraded not just handcrafted equipment but legendaryfabled equip and spells. All that will be solved with live update 13s combat and xp changes since Ill receive less xp but the cash should remain the same.
I like to solo but I disagree with how harclave was implemented. If I wanted to go into an instanced zone for hours on end with no one around Id play the crossword puzzles in the newspaper and use Yahoo Instant Messenger to talk to my crossword puzzling buddies. Im not sure why people pay money for an MMPORG so they can solo and be alone all the time seems to defeat the entire purpose of the MMPORG. | |||
